Mars Hill Discussion Board

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Mars Hill Discussion Board

Discussion board for Mars Hill study group.


    Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7:

    Poll

    If you have to choose between two who is the 11th king?

    [ 1 ]
    Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7: Bar_left100%Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7: Bar_right [100%] 
    [ 0 ]
    Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7: Bar_left0%Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7: Bar_right [0%] 

    Total Votes: 1
    Poll closed
    JustinShipp
    JustinShipp


    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2012-09-17
    Location : Arkansas

    Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7: Empty Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7:

    Post  JustinShipp Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:23 am

    Domitian:
    *He is the 11th king from Augustus Ceaser which most people say was the first real Emperor (Strong)
    *Daniel 7:8 and 20 He was only 18 years old in the year of the 4 emperors and when he acted as emperior on behalf of Vespasian until he returned. That may be why he was referred to as a little horn at first and then larger in vs 20 (Strong)
    *Verse 8 Three emperors were pulled up by the roots before his eyes since he was in rome in 69 (Strong) However in verse 24 it says he subdued 3 kings and I'm not sure how much he actually did to help in putting down those 3. From what I read, him and his uncle tried but were unsuccessful his uncle was killed and he escaped. (Weak)
    *Verse 8 and 25 He did elevate himself to be a god (Strong)
    *Verse 25 He did alter Roman times (months of the year) and Roman law (he appoints senators) But i think this argument is weaker compared to what I will say about how Vespasian full filled this.
    *Verse 25 "Given into his hand for a time, times and half a time" I don't really have a good argument for this one. So I would have to say (Weak). I have only done a limited study on Domitian persecuting the church but it seems as though it may have gotten a little blown out of proportion over the years. I have found stuff talking about nero's local persecution but sources for Domitian's empire wide persecution is harder to come by. I know he enforced a tax on the jews, which probably had some carry over to Christians, because the Jews no longer had a temple to pay taxes to upkeep. Other than that there seems to be some debate on the internet as to how much he actually persecuted Christians. Knowing that the Historical and Dispensational interpretations of Revelation loose lots of credibility if Domitian didn't persecute the Christians and exile John to Patmos, then it would be understandable for people to blow the Domitian christian persecution argument out of proportion over the years. But again I haven't researched this enough to really decide what I think about that.

    Vespasian:
    *He is not the 11th emperor unless you count the second triumvirate, or Pompeii, or count two dictators and 8 emperors. The only other thing i can say that helps the argument is that from what i read Augusts wasn't even considered to be the first emperor until after he had died. So if man is deciding who the first emperor is after the fact its harder to count accurately. But overall (Weak)
    *Daniel 7:8 little horn. Daniel 8's little horn was A.E. he destroyed parts of the city and defiled the temple. Vespasian would do the same thing with the help of his son Titus in 70 AD. A.E. was referred to as the Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 11 and Vespasian/Titus was referenced by Jesus as being the same in Matt 24:15 and again in Dainel 9:27 (Strong)
    *Verse 8 and 24 Vespasian followed the 3 civil war emperors the last of which was ultimately defeated by people who wanted Vespasian to be emperor. (Strong, but may or may not be as strong as the Domitian argument)
    *Verse 8 and 25 He tried to heal people and supposedly was successful. He supposedly was shown passages about the Christ and assumed that he was the Christ since he healed people. On his death bed some of his last words were "I think i'm becoming a god" (Strong)
    *Verse 25 Changes times and Law. In Daniel 2:21 we see that that was God's job to do that not a man's. So we are looking for an indication that because the 11th king elevated himself to a possession equal to God that he could take on God's job. This seems like a deeper meaning than just changing physical Roman Law and the months. Vespasian sent Titus to destroy Jerusalem and the temple which would ultimately do away with the times (Jewish age bring about the Christian age) and change the Law (Law of moses would be no more since the Jews would have no way to sacrifice) This also goes along with Revelation 17:17 Vespasian would have a common purpose as God so God allowed him to execute it. (Strong)
    *Verse 25 time, times and half time. I recently read an argument that Vespasian sent Titus to destroy Jerusalem because of the civil war going on in the city. They recognized judaism as an ancient religion and that Christianity came from Judaism. So by destroying the Jews and Judaism they were trying to destroy the roots in the hopes that the branches (Christianity) would die also. This may help explain Vespasian and Titus wearing down the saints. (Weak)
    avatar
    DRiley
    Guest


    Arguments for Vespasian and Domitian as the 11th king of Daniel 7: Empty Domitain????

    Post  DRiley Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:45 pm

    Well, since I gave what I think might support Domitian last Sunday evening; I’ll just post the points of strength I gave. I don’t think they all are strong, but they are things to cause him to be considered:
    1) He is the 11th emperor. If he is the “little horn” I see this as being a great encouragement to the saints under his attack: 1) God knew this was going to happen, 2) God has promised it is not going to last forever, 3) God is going to avenge his awful actions against His people. I think a great strength to this is that it would have been easy for God’s people to determine that he was the “little horn.” Simply count down 11 emperors. I agree that Augustus was not declared emperor until after his death, but he was declared to be an emperor and by the time of Domitian all considered him to have been one and the first. So, they would have started with him and counted to Domitian.
    2) He was a persecutor of the Christian way. How extensive it was is yet to be settled in my mind. I’m just saying that he did so cannot be ruled out as a possibility of being the 11th horn.
    3) He was a well-known braggart. The Roman historian, Suetonius, documented his bravado.
    4) He demanded that the people address him as a god.
    5) Daniel 7:8 – “three of the first horns were uprooted before it.” This could be a reference to the short-lived emperors Galba, Otho and Vitellius. I agree that Vespasian completely uprooted them, but they were “uprooted before it” (Domitian). I know this is not a strong argument. I’m just saying it is an argument.
    6) He changed times and laws. I consider this to be an argument, but the actions of Vespasian are more compelling that what Domitian did. However, he did change times and laws. I agree that the argument for Vespasian changing the “times and law” through his direction of Titus to destroy Jerusalem seems to be the stronger argument to me on this point. After all, Daniel is addressing issues that would affect the Jews. I doubt they would have had much concern for Domitian changing the name of a couple of months or changing the law so he could appoint his own senators. Just saying, the argument for Vespasian is much stronger, in my opinion, on this point but Domitian did some changing.

    There is more that I don’t know about this subject than I do, but I certainly enjoy revisiting it from time to time and gaining insight from others study and research. Thanks for the opportunity. I’m still trying to work out the “time, times, and half time.” I’ll post on that soon, I hope.

      Current date/time is Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:33 am